There is a retired guy in Germany that is making horns at a reasonable price - which motivated me to think about the next generation of speaker. At first I am using my 2x12" Fane Neodymium woofer box with the horn to hear what it does. The first impressions are decent.
MiniDSP, 4 channels of single ended pentode and my MacMini media center with Focusrite DAC. Woofers currently crossed over at 350 and the horn at 550 Hz with the MiniDSP Bessel 12dB/octave.
Everything sounds OK except counter tenors...
I am planning some 80Hz horns under these 65cm ones and separate low frequency management. The Grande Castine or Kornhent speakers pretty much are the direction that I am considering.
Robins Next generation
#1 Robins Next generation
Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
- IslandPink
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#2 Re: Robins Next generation
Nice - but I understand your concern about what is needed. The region from 100 to 500H is the big problem area - I'm sure it needs horn, but how to do something successful that is not impractical ? Compromises have to be made - but will it be mouth size, length or offset/delay to compromise ?
Personally, from the work I've put in so far, I feel that mouth size can be compromised more than length, and that offset can be used, but not more than about 5ms at 300Hz, maybe only 3 or 4ms at 600Hz. If you are happy with DSP then things are easier...
Personally, from the work I've put in so far, I feel that mouth size can be compromised more than length, and that offset can be used, but not more than about 5ms at 300Hz, maybe only 3 or 4ms at 600Hz. If you are happy with DSP then things are easier...
"Once you find out ... the Circumstances ; then you can go out"
#3 Re: Robins Next generation
Looks like an interesting system. When you say the tenors sound bad, could you narrow it down at all?
I can see that you've separated the crossover points - was this done by ear, or measurements?
IMO, crossovers really need measurement equipment to get dialled in properly, especially when HF horns are involved.
Chris
#4 Re: Robins Next generation
Chris, I always measure first. Holm Impulse is my tool of choice, as the room plays less of a factor during initial voicing - and I do not have to be outdoors in the wet/cold.
In this case, the 66cm horn has plenty of gain down to around 250 Hz and the 12" Fane Colossus MBN sounds great up to 800-900Hz. Being able to crossover from 250 - 800Hz gives me plenty of room to optimise. With 6dB/8va crossovers, I was able to flatten out the lower end of the horn response, reduce the load on the Faital HF146 and make a smooth transition from the 12" to the horn - and finally get rid of the honky sounding counter tenors. The original problem was a little too much at around 500Hz. Instead of notch it out, I used the crossover to solve it.
My first experiments are normally done with a MiniDSP to set the crossover points, then I build the line level passive xovers into the amplifiers. I am still at the MiniDSP stage but am VERY close.
Next step will be to acoustically dampen the horn backside and build a proper stand for it.
In this case, the 66cm horn has plenty of gain down to around 250 Hz and the 12" Fane Colossus MBN sounds great up to 800-900Hz. Being able to crossover from 250 - 800Hz gives me plenty of room to optimise. With 6dB/8va crossovers, I was able to flatten out the lower end of the horn response, reduce the load on the Faital HF146 and make a smooth transition from the 12" to the horn - and finally get rid of the honky sounding counter tenors. The original problem was a little too much at around 500Hz. Instead of notch it out, I used the crossover to solve it.
My first experiments are normally done with a MiniDSP to set the crossover points, then I build the line level passive xovers into the amplifiers. I am still at the MiniDSP stage but am VERY close.
Next step will be to acoustically dampen the horn backside and build a proper stand for it.
Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
#5 Re: Robins Next generation
I agree with the 100-500Hz being the area of concern. It is not a problem as horns are what they are, you either accept that or use something else. Any serious compromise ends up landing in the bin.IslandPink wrote: ↑Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:58 pm Nice - but I understand your concern about what is needed. The region from 100 to 500H is the big problem area - I'm sure it needs horn, but how to do something successful that is not impractical ? Compromises have to be made - but will it be mouth size, length or offset/delay to compromise ?
Personally, from the work I've put in so far, I feel that mouth size can be compromised more than length, and that offset can be used, but not more than about 5ms at 300Hz, maybe only 3 or 4ms at 600Hz. If you are happy with DSP then things are easier...
I only use DSP for the modeling stage. I do not like my analog sources being converted to digital and back. If I only had digital, it would be a no brainer.
I will be first experimenting with the Kornhent/Grande Castine 80 -300Hz solution and Bert Doppenbergs Orelo open back configuration.
Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.